Make the Leap

Punishing The Poor - Navigating the Financial Aid Process For Low Income Students

Ross Education

How has the value of the Pell Grant evolved from a crucial lifeline to a mere drop in the bucket when it comes to covering today's skyrocketing tuition fees? Join us on Make the Leap as we uncover the historical shifts and present-day challenges faced by low-income students navigating the financial aid landscape. We'll take you back to 1972, when the Pell Grant was introduced, and contrast its purchasing power then versus now. Through real-life examples from Michigan's public and private colleges, we illustrate how the gap between financial aid and actual tuition has widened, leaving students with overwhelming financial burdens.

Ever wondered why the financial aid process feels like an uphill battle for so many? This episode dives deep into the systemic hurdles that underrepresented groups face, from complex FAFSA requirements to the often inaccessible documentation needed for tax filings. We emphasize the critical role of financial aid administrators and the importance of exercising professional judgment to foster a more empathetic and comprehensive approach. By addressing these multifaceted challenges, we advocate for policies that genuinely understand and alleviate the struggles of low-income students.

Technology has the potential to revolutionize the student financial aid experience, but is it a double-edged sword? We explore how digital tools can both simplify and complicate the process, offering self-paced resources and targeted support while also increasing complexity. This episode sheds light on the recent overhaul of FAFSA aimed at simplification and discusses the paradox of choice in educational decision-making. From exploring the shift from grants to loans to personal anecdotes highlighting the financial instability caused by student debt, we offer a compelling discussion on the evolving financial aid landscape. Tune in for insights that could change the way we support our future scholars.

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Speaker 1:

Welcome to Make the Leap, a podcast focused on the many economic hurdles facing college students, lower income individuals and those striving to move up the social ladder. I'm Brad Constant here with George Graeb and Kristen Biel. George, let's start with you. What is our topic for today?

Speaker 2:

All right, thank you, brad. Our podcast for today deals with issues in relationship to financial aid and in issues relating to students with limited income trying to navigate the financial aid process as they attempt to go to college or a post-secondary institution. I'm going to deal with it from a couple of points of views. One is we'll talk through tuition over time and the impact of Pell, and then we'll talk a little bit about the way the model is set up right now, on how punitive sometimes it can be to students who have limited income. Pell Grant, which is the foundation of the financial aid process, is at least. We'll go back to the origins of the Pell Grant, which is the foundation of the financial aid process, and then take that through the years in comparison to what tuition used to be and what it is today. I'm going to walk through three comparisons. We're going to talk about a leading public institution in Michigan which is considered as the number one public state university. We will talk about one that is more of a private, nonprofit, more liberal art institution, and then we'll use Ross also as a mechanism to compare. The Pell Grant has been around since 1972. It was part of a bill that was sponsored by Senator Pell and therefore it's been called the Pell Grant. It's now 52, 53 years that we've had the Pell and therefore it's been called the Pell Grant. It's now 52, 53 years that we've had the Pell Grant. If you went to college in 1972, the Pell Grant would have been $500. So the minimum you would have gotten would have been $50 and the max you would have gotten would have been $500. So let's kind of take this in context in terms of what was the tuition then at a couple of institutions and how the Pell Grant would have played out for somebody that is coming to a school with limited resources. The premise of the Pell Grant is that if your household income is about 150% of the poverty line you will get the full Pell. So in 1972, the poverty line was roughly for a household of one, roughly $4,500 for an annual income. The Pell Grant looks at it more on a household basis. So if there's two or three people, obviously the amount of annual income you would have and still be considered poor would be higher. But if you were at 150% of the poverty line in 1972, you would have gotten 500 bucks in terms of Pell Grant.

Speaker 2:

The state university we're going to use. Their tuition in 1972 was $350 per term. So for a full year to go at the leading public state institution in Michigan would have cost you roughly $700. So if you are poor, you qualify for the PAL. Your out-of-pocket costs or potentially covered by state grants or other mechanism would have been $200. So if we move over to a private school also in the state of Michigan, if we look at their tuition in 1972, it was $2,600. None of these numbers include room and board. This is direct tuition, does not include fees, does not include books, does not include supplies. This is simply direct tuition. So that private institution was $2,600 to go to that school for one academic year.

Speaker 2:

So let's fast forward to today. So the Pell Grant has gone from $500 to $7,395. So basically, over the last 52 years, if you are poor and you rely on the Pell Grant to go to school, you will get $6,895 more than you would versus somebody who went there in 1972. Now the argument sometimes will come is the value of the dollar in 1972 versus the value of the dollar today, and I will touch on that here in a bit, but just to make my point. So the Pell Grant's additional money is $6,895. That State University's tuition today that was basically $700 per academic year is roughly a little bit over $18,000. So let's play the math If you are poor, if you are poor in 72, your out-of-pocket cost is about 200 bucks.

Speaker 2:

If you are poor today and you want to go to the same university, your out-of-pocket cost now is almost $10,000. So I titled this podcast as Punishing the Poor. So, as you could see, that $200 shortage is now $10,000 per academic year. That is going to cost you to go to the same school Now if you decide. But I want to go to a private school, liberal arts school that is also in Michigan. Their tuition today, again without room and board, is $41,500. So the Pell Grant in 1972 would have covered $500 of the $2,600. So their cost would have been about $2,100 out of pocket. Today, if they decide to go to the same school, it would cost them almost $34,000 more per academic year. So the argument is what about the purchasing, the value of the dollar? So to keep this into context, you could have gone to that same university for four years in the early days of the Pell Grant for about $6,000 in total. For about $6,000 in total, the purchasing power of $6,000 in 1972 versus today is roughly $44,000 to $45,000. It costs you almost. You pay that much almost in one full year, especially when you add up the room and board versus what you would have had to do in 1972. In the 1970s it would not have been unheard of to have a part-time job, work during school and pay for college without having to go on into debt or having to take out student loans. That option obviously does not exist anymore. So that's the first part of the podcast, which is how much tuition has come versus how much grants are now available to the student.

Speaker 2:

In the late 1970s, early 1980s, universities began to expand. They began to expand locations. They began to add buildings, buy land. They become incredibly more expensive. The dorms some of them became more of a state of the art, and that has continued over time. Dorms Some of them became more of a state of the art, and that has continued over time. Athletic programs are being added and the notion was and still is in many of these institutions.

Speaker 2:

They called it kind of the new financial aid model for poor students is high cost, high financial aid. The argument was being made that if you charge a lot, then you could use the money that you get from the student that can afford to pay to finance the students who cannot pay. So basically, if you get a cash pay for an $18,000 or somebody mom or dad are going to write a check they're going to be able to subsidize a student that may not be able to afford to go to that school. That argument has been really difficult to see today, just because the financial aid amount did not increase. So, even though in concept you could make the argument, if more people pay into the system, some of that money can be used to help students who come from limited resources. But as you can see with both examples the cost for somebody with limited income or living around a poverty line that model no longer works.

Speaker 2:

And then there's a second piece to why that model no longer works. The pressure to recruit the students who can pay is so high that universities and maybe not as much in the public sector, but definitely the private schools have introduced a whole new concept which is called discounting. So they are competing so hard for the student that can afford to pay, that does not need the need-based grants or the need-based funding, that now they are basically for lack of a better word, and this is my term but they are discounting their tuition. The discounting rate at private nonprofit is almost 56%, so that's how fierce the competition is for the student that can afford to go to school. So the model of high tuition, high financial aid, is really not even doable anymore because the schools have abandoned it as they try to chase additional dollars from the student that can pay. So on the podcast today we will walk through some elements of this in terms of what the students can do, what are the things that are available to them, but also to really present that the financial aid process that was built in 1972 is really no longer feasible and is no longer helpful to students who have limited income. It's becoming even more difficult to go to school today versus even back in 1972. So to be fair in that process.

Speaker 2:

So let's talk a little bit about Ross, and I've been here for a little over 13 years. When I started at Ross, the Pell Grant was $5,500. Ross's tuition was $14,950. 13 years later, the tuition for Ross is $15,950. So we raised the tuition by $1,000. On the flip side of that, the Pell Grant has increased by $1,850. So to attend Ross 13 years ago versus today, our current students will borrow almost $1,000 less 13 years later than students in 1972.

Speaker 2:

That's really ultimately how financial aid needs to work. It needs to continue to make attending college, attending post-secondary, attending a school more reasonable within the resources that the students have. Student loans are becoming such a big piece of financial aid and it's hard for, I think, if you're not in the industry or you don't work in higher ed. It's hard sometimes to grasp the challenge that our students go through. 72% of all undergraduates need financial aid, some type of financial aid, whether it's institutional, whether it's state or whether it's federal, and loans now play a much bigger role than grants In most cases. Difficult proposition to ask students to go and take on loans to go to school knowing that they ultimately need the skills, they need, the training to get on to the next chapter in their life and whatever that career may be. But the road now that was supposed to be driven by grants, by ability to pay for it, maybe through work, study, through taking another job, is now totally dependent on how much loans you have to take or you are willing to take.

Speaker 1:

Thanks, George. This is going to be a great episode. There is so much to talk about regarding financial aid, loans and all that stuff, but it's time to meet our guests Kristen, who do we have the pleasure of chatting with today?

Speaker 3:

Well, we are lucky to be joined by Ross's Liz Lee. Liz has been the Director of Financial Aid at Ross for nearly three years now. She earned her bachelor's degree in business from Davenport University, followed by two master's earned at Grand Valley in education and school counseling. Throughout her career, liz has been a school counselor, held multiple financial roles, overseen student services departments and even has her own consulting practice. She's also a current board member for the Ross College Foundation. Regardless of the role, liz strives to help students and colleagues step into the best version of themselves. Liz, thanks for joining us today.

Speaker 4:

Good afternoon. Thanks, Kristen. I'm really thrilled to be here. This is not a light topic, but I'm really excited to dive in with y'all.

Speaker 2:

You begin about the financial aid process, both in terms of setup in terms of access. Many of our students tend to be promised a system that they can access easily. Many of our students are low income. Sometimes they lack the resources, they lack the technology. The process seems incredibly difficult, so the question is why is it so hard? The process seems incredibly difficult, so the question is why is it so hard? And as we continue to rely on technology, is that a help or a hindrance to their ability to access financial aid?

Speaker 4:

Yeah, it's an interesting question and a loaded question. I don't really pretend to know all of the different parts that come into play in terms of, you know, the government has negotiated rulemaking when we make decisions about the financial aid process or just the bureaucratic process in general commonalities over the years as it relates to some of those barriers and just accessing financial aid in general. I think the first one is just that college educated people are really the ones making these decisions. They've already navigated the process. They're used to a lot of assumptions that people can just do that I don't think are a very common thing for underrepresented groups or low-income families.

Speaker 4:

So, like an example of that might be, I file my taxes every year. I understand that there are different parts of my life with different application processes that might require me to access those taxes right. So I know that I have to follow the IRS guidelines. I know what those deadlines are because my family has always done that. They've modeled that, they teach me how to do that, and so I keep a copy of those records. I, like I said, file on time year over year. I know where they're at, I keep them in the same spot and so it's easy for me. That's not a burden for me If somebody says Liz, I need a copy of your taxes from 2021.

Speaker 4:

And so I think, like there's a lot of assumptions in that that students and families do that same thing, and I think that is one of the big barriers. As you can imagine, with the FAFSA and the financial aid process, taxes are a huge part of that process and so if there's something in flux with their taxes, or they didn't understand that, or they just even don't, they're not organized to realize they need it again after it's done, that in and of itself can be a barrier. That's a good example. When I say there's commonalities that I think are just assumed and it's a big deal then for a lot of families because a lot of complexity can come into that.

Speaker 2:

As we think of financial aid. Sometimes we focus on FAFSA right, but there are a lot more components to it. Fafsa is one part. Institutional grant is another part. State grants is another part. You know different resources that are available.

Speaker 2:

The process seems to be fixated on kind of the traditional environment where parents and kids work together on completing a FAFSA and you talk about finding the taxes, finding the resources. Sometimes our students don't really that, may potentially be a dependent student, but have really no access to their parents or have no access to their taxes. The government sometimes may even know more about their parents than they do. Many of our students live in what I would call intergenerational poverty. It just seems that the process is incredibly difficult. It's like you have to prove that you are poor. It's not enough that you are poor, but you also got to come up with a way to prove beyond reasonable doubt that you are poor. I mean, you do this day in and day out and you probably see different scenarios of where students have a tough time getting what they need to get the financial aid that they're absolutely eligible for. You know why do you think we do this?

Speaker 4:

Yeah, george, actually I think that's a huge part of it. So I started working in financial aid in 2006. And I worked in financial aid for about 10 years and then I went off and I did some other things and when I came back to financial aid I said I only am interested in this role if I can bring back the people side of the process. And what I meant by that was that these are the things that you see a lot of times in financial aid offices where we're so fixated on. This is the rule, this is the black and white process, and so we have to make the student do this. We have to do X, y and Z and actually the government and the rules that are around that.

Speaker 4:

There's a lot of financial aid that we call it professional judgment. As an aid administrator, if you're trained and you know the regulations, you know where you do have to, you know draw the line to say, okay, I understand this can be a challenge, but you know I'll walk with you through that. But then there are other times that you can exercise that professional judgment to say, you know, we're really splitting hairs here. Or even if I make the student gather all of this documentation, it doesn't change what their aid eligibility is. So the government actually gives us that exercise to be able to do that.

Speaker 4:

And that's really what I focus a lot of my time on with the team is understanding deeply the reason why we're asking for something and always connecting it back to the regulation, because that allows us to serve our students better. And I think, the more that you can equip financial aid offices to think more holistically like that and not just setting out a process and saying follow this process because you have to. And I will say I think that over the years I don't have a specific, you know, data metric, but I do think that there's been a lot of evolution in terms of the work that we're doing, especially here at Ross, with students who we can remove those barriers to go back and ask okay, why are we asking for this? Does it change aid eligibility or are we just making them jump through another hoop?

Speaker 3:

Yesterday's training and admissions was focusing on helping students overcome obstacles before enrollment and after enrollment, and, of course, financial considerations is one that we work with students on.

Speaker 3:

However, about 10 minutes of our discussion yesterday focused on the social pressures that might be exerted upon students to not disclose that they are afraid or not, let you know that they're not prepared or not, let you know that they don't know how to do something, and our focus in admissions was to say, hey, just because someone enrolls does not mean your job is done. This is just the beginning of assisting them to get to graduation ultimately and you had touched on something that really resonated with me and that was talking about modeling the behavior that you had witnessed, that behavior perhaps from your family, and so we're encouraging that in admissions now to do the same. Is that something that the collaboration between financial aid and admissions can benefit the student? By kind of looking at the pressures that someone might be feeling and put ourselves in their shoes and say, okay, we're going to have to approach maybe that hard conversation in a different way. Yeah, what are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 4:

I'm really thinking two things come to mind, which is the collaboration and the technology piece. And so I mean, especially here at Ross, we work really closely with our admissions team on a daily basis. We have constant communication. It's not like working on projects or different things that are coming up in terms of overall, like organizational goals. We are working on student topics.

Speaker 4:

But I think the technology is a part of the solution, because there are a lot of students who don't need our help, right, they need resources, they need short videos, they need, you know, reminders. But you can build the technology to offer those students those pieces so that they can navigate the process and, honestly, our students want that. They're used to doing things when they want to do it on their phones at night, at a convenient time for them, and they can navigate it a lot of the time. But you have another group of students who really need more of that hand-holding, and so if we can leverage technology to be able to assist and, you know, kind of move students through that are a little bit more self-paced and self-directed, they can do that and they feel comfortable with that, engaged right. How do we personally connect with them? How do we identify key data elements that we know are the barriers and specifically reach out to the right group of students so that they're not missed.

Speaker 4:

I think that's usually what happens in, you know, a large system is that students get missed, they get lost in the shuffle. But that is where we can really utilize technology and the advances to be able to identify those students. Pretty clearly. We've got some good data points right. We know the students that struggle. We know answers to questions on applications or FAFSA that are good indicators for us that that student is going to need a little bit more support and we can put them into different groups and have people that are specialized in that piece of it to really help those students. Then the student experience, I mean, in my opinion, goes up a million percent because they feel like we see them, we hear them, because they feel like we see them, we hear them and we're there to support them.

Speaker 1:

We've mentioned FAFSA. That's the Free Application for Federal Student Aid. It's been in the news a lot lately Delays, mistakes, reprocessing we could spend a whole episode talking about just that. The form is so many questions. If it could be reduced down, it could fit on a postcard, to use George's terms. If the IRS is already collecting all of this income information through taxes, through other things like, what do they really need?

Speaker 4:

Yeah, it's a great question and I'm glad that we brought it up because I feel like I have an unpopular opinion about it because there's been so much negativity in the media, even with financial aid offices, with the National Association. I mean, I have a tendency to always reframe to the positive. It's just how I survive life, but I don't think things are. I think it's been a huge overhaul right and with that comes a lot of things we didn't anticipate and things that the government didn't anticipate, and technology barriers, just like I was just saying out of you know, one side of my mouth.

Speaker 4:

Technology can be the answer, but if it's not done well and you don't take the time and really troubleshoot and build out all of those different scenarios to George's point, like if you don't know who your audience is, you don't know who those students are and how they could experience that, or you know, have it on the user end then there's bound to be errors and delays and that's really what we're experiencing right now. Is that just maybe that the whole scope of the work maybe wasn't fully there, but for the students who have done the FAFSA for 24-25 and it's worked. I know that's not been all the scenarios, there has been a ton of feedback. This is where I say it's an unpopular opinion, that it truly is simplified. So the idea of this overhaul was called FASTA simplification right, and it really did take the 100 questions off of the FASTA that it's been done for how many ever years? Down to about 35 questions. So that in and of itself is an adjustment right. It is a streamlined, more efficient way to gather that information.

Speaker 3:

Filling out college applications, which one might think would have become easier in the digital age, has become time consuming, and students apply to more colleges now, and elite colleges now even try to distinguish themselves with essay requirements, for example. They have multiple deadlines and different types of admissions, including early action early decision one, early decision two. What are your thoughts, liz? Does that defeat the FAFSA simplification idea?

Speaker 4:

Fascinating question, kristen. I'm actually so bear with me here. A second, because several years ago I read a study that was talking about flavors of ice cream and basically the outcome your brain is wired that the less choices you have, the more satisfied you are. So if I have three choices chocolate, strawberry and vanilla I choose one of those. I'm happy because I pretty much know I don't like chocolate or vanilla. Like I'm going to be happy with my strawberry, but I have 99 flavors.

Speaker 4:

Odds are, after I choose whatever flavor, I choose cookie dough I'm going to feel like, hmm, did I make the right decision? And so I think some of that comes into play when there's so many options. Now I think about that with students and, like you said, I have a little consulting piece that I do and I help students navigate this process, mostly just because I like to work with students and it is. It's really overwhelming and there are so many good choices in terms of trade school options, community college, professional tracks or even like direct workforce, and I think they're all great options for each individual.

Speaker 4:

Right, you have to make that decision as an individual, but what students are doing, too is they're looking at YouTube and TikToks and all of these like life hacks that are giving them the answers to how they navigate this process, and what they should really be doing is talking to trusted people that are in their circle circle that's my opinion on it because there's so many resources, whether that's your school teacher or your school counselor, or you know college that you visited that you just felt really at home at, or you know a trade school or somebody that's in that field, maybe electrician or medical assistant, like whatever that is.

Speaker 4:

You're talking to those people that are in your circle to really break down the rest of the noise, because it is a lot. But once you can make that decision for yourself, then you can navigate that process, I think, a little bit easier, and even in financial aid offices that's what I encourage my team to do is be that trusted resource. That's why we partner with admissions. Sometimes those admissions reps are a trusted resource for that person because they've gotten to know them through the enrollment process and so they can help connect that student to what's going to be the best option for you at this school.

Speaker 2:

So one part of financial aid Liz now is student loans. You know I highlighted as going back to the original the Pell Grant. The majority of financial aid Liz now is student loans. I highlight it as going back to the original the Pell Grant. The majority of financial aid used to be grants. 80% of all your financial aid used to be grants. Today it's almost 60% of it is loans. We rely heavily on loans, now more than ever, to have kids go to school, especially kids that have very limited resources and no money at all. How did we get here?

Speaker 4:

Well, that's a good question. I mean I don't know that I have the answer to that. Costs change over the years but institutions have also grown and tuition charges at institutions have far surpassed what standard inflation is. But the Department of Ed can't keep up with it on the funding side and families can't keep up with it. So it's almost like it's going back to how it was when higher ed was originally started, where it was only for the elite. There's been questions around. Will that start to come back where our schools, but also to move?

Speaker 3:

them forward in economic status after they graduate? I wonder to myself I've seen data, but I don't have it at my hand, about cultures and their perception of loans, for example. And what about low-income families specifically? Are you familiar with any information that talks about their willingness to take out loans or what the effect is on those low-income families who are forced to do that to take more loans out?

Speaker 4:

I think it really goes both ways and even for myself personally, I was a first college, first generation college student and my mom's message was just you have to get an education and whatever it takes to get there, you kind of worry about it later, and so some of that is just that blindly. You know signing the forms, you know filling out promissory notes for the government and because you never exchange hands, you know what I mean. Like the government doesn't give the student that money and then the student pays their bill, just happens all in the backend process and so you don't make as many connections there that like, oh, this is actually not money, that was free, but that financial aid also includes loans, and so there's confusion there after they graduate to say, wait, no, I got financial aid, what do you mean? I owe this back Because of that approach. I just have to get this education to get out of my current situation and I'll worry about it later type thing.

Speaker 4:

And for me that worked out, you know and I, but I don't think in every situation is it as as successful, because you really do have to understand what you're committing to. But I think on the flip side of that, it's also a barrier where they just say no to loans altogether and they're not really thinking about the fact that there are schools that you can go to, that you're taking out minimal loans. They just shut down the whole idea of college because they just say I can't afford it, without fully knowing, without fully doing the research or applying to multiple different schools, that the aid might look different. Aid can look very different at different institutions.

Speaker 3:

Do you think that those loans and that subsequent debt affects low-income families in a disproportionate way?

Speaker 4:

Yeah, I think, because when you're yes, I do think it does because the there's so much less room for buffer right when you're, when you have a low income budget, that income is fixed right. Like you, you don't have a lot of room. Even if it's a it's an extra $50 a month or a100 payment, that can be huge for a family.

Speaker 2:

I think the data for the most part, unless you're going to be maybe an engineer or a computer science or certain majors where the payoff is going to be meaningful, I think the data doesn't really support the notion of getting somebody who has no money to get them in debt. It's the only way we can present it to them, but it's a difficult proposition. I think the one areas I've always wondered is if you're a first-generation college kid, could we at least not have them get into debt on their first year in college? Could you at least get one try at it to see if you're going to be good at it, if it's what you want, if it's going to be successful? As Liz said, you get the support, you get the academic. You take advantage of the opportunity before you get into debt.

Speaker 2:

Only 34% of Americans have a college degree. We have millions of Americans who started college but never finished and never completed. A graduate who a college grad who is white comes out with $24,000 in debt. A college grad who's black comes out with $54,000 in debt. It's very punitive. It's like the less you have, the more debt you've got to take on to finish the same degree that somebody else that maybe just happened to be a little bit more wealthier than you are.

Speaker 2:

So I would argue, you know that loans are a really a significant hurdle, but we rely on them right now so heavily. I mean we've we flipped the script it used to be grants, now it's loans, and we call it an investment, like you know, but it really isn't. Like there is no method that shows that $60,000 culinary program pays off in the long term. Like there is no data that supports that, but nevertheless we monetized it. So we call it an investment versus, you know, calling it a public service or a public good. You're doing the right thing by training students so they can contribute, do well and hopefully move out of poverty. Let's wrap this up and I know we've been all over the place on this one what are one or two things that you would recommend for students who really come from backgrounds that may not have been to college or anybody in their family been to college, have limited resources? What are the one or two things you would recommend that they do as they plan potentially going to a post-secondary institution, whatever that might look like?

Speaker 4:

For me, it's about using those resources. It's about encouraging them to ask the questions, even to Kristen's point, even when you might think that you're the only one asking that question or you're scared of what that judgment might be or what the answer might be. Ask it anyway. Those are the things that you're not the only one in the room, and even as an administrator, sometimes those student questions that they ask are some of the things that help me really rethink my process, right when I get a new question that I've never been asked before, a situation that's come up that I didn't realize was a situation that a student might be experiencing, and so questions are so good to continue to iterate on our processes and provide resources to students, and so I would really just encourage them to kind of shift their mindset in asking those questions, but also shift their mindset instead of saying like I can't or this is not going to work, it's like what if it did? And that really, I think, is the game changer in situations, because when you start to ask those questions and if you do it, you put yourself out there once and it provides you with an outcome that is positive then you continue to do that and I think that's a life skill, not just in the, you know, navigating college and the financial aid process, but shifting your mindset to believe that there's something else possible and continuing to ask those questions. And I think, just starting where you're at you know we all are, you know bring our life experiences to different situations. And so wherever you are right now, just starting there and connecting with your circle or utilizing those resources that are around you, your action is going to be important and you know we had.

Speaker 4:

We can have dreams and think about things and wish for things all the time, but if we're not taking those actionable steps to say I'm going to commit to this and I'm going to, I'm going to ask this question, I'm going to meet with this admissions person, and just continuing to do that, those small little actions really add up over time. Small little actions really add up over time and I think that those are the game changers. It's not about navigating the bureaucracy or taking out a loan or not taking out a loan. It's changing your mindset around. What does this do for you and your future? Because I do believe that a college education or a specific credential into a high demand field can completely change the trajectory of a person's life, and so if they can just shift their mindset around it, even if they've never seen it before, and lean into that process and commit to it if that's what they want, that is probably the best advice that I could give.

Speaker 2:

Well, it's proven right Education is the only way only proven way out of poverty. There's really not too many other shortcuts that are going to be available for folks who are trying to do better for themselves, and therefore families, and financial aid plays such a key part of that. It's one of the tools that would make post-secondary vocational college whatever you want to call it trade schools, make that a reality and hopefully over time we will continue to make it more accessible, more reasonable, hopefully less demanding, and give our students more opportunities to go to school without having to come out of it with massive amount of debt.

Speaker 1:

Liz, thank you so much for your time here today. Thanks for listening to Make the Leap. Be sure to visit our site, rosspodcastcom or the podcast platform of your choice, to listen to past episodes as well as subscribe, so you never miss a future episode. We hope you join us two weeks from now for our next episode, closing the Gap. Millions Count on Free Medical Clinics. See you then.

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