Speaker 1: 0:10

Welcome to Make the Leap, a podcast focused on the many economic hurdles facing college students, lower income individuals and those striving to move up the social ladder. I'm Brad Constant here with George Graham. George, what is today's topic?

Speaker 2: 0:31

All right, thank you, brad. So today we're going to be talking about the digital divide and hybrid learning, online learning and the impact on low-income students. This is not a new topic, so we're revisiting something that we've discussed within the Ross community and on this podcast as we came out of the pandemic. But the digital divide is a problem that affects people from all walks of life. The two main key areas in it is access to high-speed internet and access to reliable devices.

Speaker 2: 1:03

Why do we talk about it, why do we want to address it and why do we want to close the gap? It's because the consequences for the digital divide are massive in terms of impact on our students. Unequal access to digital resources can reinforce existing issues that we have, whether in society, economics, education, disparities, creating a disadvantaged cycle that the students will never ever be able to come out of it. It also restricts our students' ability to obtain information, education, employment opportunities, services, healthcare, knowledge and any other essential services. This truly can limit the ability of our students to have any kind of social mobility. And the reality is this gap only gets worse when it coincides with economic inequality and the gap continues to to widen, and then you've got a huge difference between those who have the resources and those are in the marginalized communities, so that that's our topic for today.

Speaker 1: 2:05

Brad George, I'm glad we're reviewing this topic. Like you mentioned, it is near and dear to our work at Ross. I'm also looking forward to chatting with our guests. Today we are chatting with Dr Rhonda Baumann, who has been with Ross since 2018. She is a graduate of the Kent State University, honors College, antioch University, mcggregor and Argosy University. She is currently the online English and literature instructor for Ross College Online. She has been a writer and editor for over 30 years and has been an instructor for over 20 years. In her free time, she walks her dog, a half-beagle, half-aussie shepherd named Pumpkin. She also writes essays and articles for various magazines, such as Girls and On Film. She also writes essays and articles for various magazines, such as Girls and On Film. Even more intriguing, she has spearheaded her own zine series, medium Chill, of which she is currently working on the ninth issue that will be published on Amazon in the near future.

Speaker 2: 2:54

Rhonda, thank you so much for joining us today. You're welcome. It's good to be here. To begin, as I started with the intro, this is not a new topic for us. We've visited this topic before on this podcast and its impact on our student. But to get started, I'd like to take your take on online learning, the digital divide, what it is, what you see in it and its impact on students.

Speaker 3: 3:22

Well, that's a very big question, the digital divide. It encompasses a lot of different things. It takes me back to my early days of sitting in my first sociology classes, thinking about people who have access to things and people who don't have access to things, and what kinds of things don't they have access to. The digital divide itself is just. It's huge, it's vast, it affects millions of people, including a lot of my students. In other words, you know what kinds of things do they need to be successful? Very basic things, I think. A lot of things, too, that I often take for granted. So I have to remember, you know, my students. They need things like a viable laptop and a stable internet connection. They need time as well, away from work, to learn how these things work in order to be successful in a lot of the classes I teach. So does the digital divide have a big effect on millions of people, including my students? Absolutely. Now how do we reach across that divide and bring everyone over? I guess that's the big question.

Speaker 2: 4:33

When we talk about it in terms of its impact. You know, when, coming out of the pandemic, our students really were forced into it. You know, ross, for example, we only had a very, very small online population majority. Example, we only had a very, very small online population majority, a clear majority. Almost 90% of our students were in-person learning, so they got forced into it. Now, some of our students find it very appealing, right? Because if you're a single mom, if you're working two jobs, if you're trying to be at home with your kids and not having to be gone as much, you know, online learning or hybrid learning is very appealing, but sometimes it also feels punitive because they're not ready. They're not prepared and they don't have the resources. As a teacher, how do you see, like, how do you tell when somebody is prepared to be an online student and somebody that is not really equipped to be an online student?

Speaker 3: 5:29

A lot of times my more eager students. They jump right in, they're ready, they're jumping into the discussion boards and they're emailing me and they're liking my comments on the announcements. Other times students are just, you know, very, very quiet. They're not as eager to jump in, and so I reach out to everyone. I leave no student behind. Sometimes I probably think that my students are like, wow, does this instructor ever stop talking? But I would rather reach out too much than not enough.

Speaker 3: 5:57

Whether the student finds it appealing or not, I want them to have the most positive experience they possibly can in my class, and if that means I reach them via email, zoom text, the discussion board, the grade box, feedback, the announcements, whatever, I want to make sure that they have all of those options available to them to wherever they feel comfortable. And I let them know that I know that the height of the pandemic is over, but that I vividly remember my last day teaching a ground campus for Ross too. I vividly remember it like it was just 10 minutes ago and I would be lying if I said I didn't miss it a little bit, but that I've been an online instructor and a hybrid instructor for so long that I'm comfortable here for all of you too. And just like I'm speaking to you now, this is exactly how I would. I would speak to a student and it's not just about in the assignments for my class or their due dates, but I want to know about them and their lives, and I'm here as a almost like a sounding board in a way, someone they can bounce ideas off of, someone that they can actually talk to without you know, any judgment. Sometimes I don't have any advice, I just listen and I need them to know that I'm here for all of that. That I understand they have many things going on. I know my students. They have families to take care of and sometimes multiple jobs. They have more than one class going on. Maybe they have questions too, and they're just embarrassed to ask.

Speaker 3: 7:33

Like just today, a student reached out and said hey, do you offer essay refreshers? It's like an essay refresher. Yeah, can you remind me about thesis statements and topic sentences? And I said, absolutely, I can do that. And how do you want that? Do you want to do you want to talk over zoom? Do you want me to make a PowerPoint? Do you want me to write down the lecture for you? All of the above and the student really emailed back and said I want all of it. I want everything. I said, okay, I can do that too. So whatever part of the digital divide that we have to, you know, look at and attempt to, you know, reach across and pull folks over. I want them to know that I'm there for that all day, no matter what.

Speaker 1: 8:19

So, rhonda, I know from our previous conversation you are passionate about making your class as accessible as possible. Can you help us paint a picture for people that might be outside of the classroom, outside of the whole hybrid or online environment, on what the access divide is for especially low income students, like they are facing hurdles just to try and get online at some points. Can you do you have any examples? Could you paint a better picture of that for us?

Speaker 3: 8:47

So even just this term, I'm noticing that students may have access to hey, I have my laptop, I have a little bit of time here between jobs. But just because they have access doesn't necessarily mean that they're just jumping right in and without any type of issue completing those assignments. So just this term, I'm noticing that students are they're experiencing a high volume of I guess I would just call glitches. My laptop has suddenly shut off, my phone has been shut off. I can't get a connection here.

Speaker 3: 9:27

Sometimes students may have technology. They may be temporarily displaced out of the home, they may be, in fact in a not safe environment. So they have access to all of these lovely technological things. If those things are not working properly for them, they may not know how to address, how to get those things fixed. Secondly, if they have other things that are impeding the use of that technology, they may find it very difficult to find their footing. And if they miss one assignment and they fall behind just a little bit, they start apologizing and feeling badly. And I tell them you really don't have to apologize to me, there's absolutely no reason to apologize. How can I help you get back on track? Anything that I can possibly do to include them so they don't feel left behind in any way.

Speaker 3: 10:22

Sometimes even the most minor inconvenience, it can be really overwhelming. You know, you have one little thing, and then another little thing and, oh my goodness, here comes a big thing. Sometimes people will just, they will go quiet and they will shut down. I respect that. I will not stop reaching out to them and until the very end of class I will continue to say we've still got time, we've still got time, there's still some time here. What can we do? I'm just looking for your best effort. I say and they probably get tired of me saying there's no such thing as perfection. But there really isn't a such thing as perfection. If I don't know what that's looked like after 30 years, I would never expect a student to know what that looks like either.

Speaker 2: 11:06

I'm curious, rhonda, so you talked about access in terms of do they have access to a laptop, and then you talked through the issues that they can have, whether they have internet, or is it safe environment, or are they even in a place where they do that? What are the things that you use to kind of help you formulate that the student is having issues above and beyond the classroom environment? They're having issues relating to, maybe, their home life, maybe issues relating to poverty, maybe issues relating to technology. You know, what are the things you pick up on to help you kind of move down the second path you mentioned, which is, you know, try different routes. So what are the things that you can share with us, based on your experience, that other teachers can maybe copy to help them identify students who really are simply dealing with issues above and beyond the classroom world?

Speaker 3: 12:01

That's an excellent question too. As much as I would love to pretend that I'm somehow some sort of intuitive teaching genius, I know that's not true. I think I've been doing what I do for a long time and I'm good at it. But the kind of instructor I am, I have the benefit of reading student essays and student journals, student essays and student journals. I've set up my classroom so I deliberately prompt students for attendance for writing practice, a lot of writing practice. What looks like a very simple hey, do this for some attendance today is really me poking around and trying to dig around as unobtrusively as possible to see what's going on. So I set up the classroom.

Speaker 3: 12:54

In terms of journal entries, small writing assignments and essays, there's a lot of self-reflection, a lot of me using the Socratic method without like just overwhelming the student with my barrage of questions. I'm as open and honest with them and discussion boards as I can be. So I want them to do the same thing. They have to feel comfortable and they have to feel safe. They have to feel like I'm not going to judge or somehow get angry if they, if I, disagree with something they say. You know, I need them to know that. That's OK, that's what this environment's for. Once they they know that and I have to do it fast, right out of the gate, because you know these are accelerated courses.

Speaker 3: 13:40

Here I jump in immediately to assess you know where the students are with the very first journal entry on day one. You know emails are answered very promptly within a 12 to 24 hour time period. I will respond to every journal entry and try to establish a dialogue back and forth with just the individual students, as well as using the discussion board to formulate group responses to get students to reply to each other, to get oh hey, you know student X, did you see what student Y over here said? So I'm hoping to help students learn that the discussion board's not just to discuss and get points. You can actually network here as well. That's what this is for to practice those things.

Speaker 2: 14:26

So let me maybe put it a different way and see if you would agree with that. You use your quizzes, your questions to really build a relationship and get to know the students better.

Speaker 3: 14:37

Yes, all term, long for the entire duration of the class. So I have that privilege of I want them to know that their story matters. It matters a lot. All of the stories that they tell me make up who they are. So it's my privilege, like right away, to get some of their stories. They can start out very small with the journals but as we go on, I'm hoping that this seemingly innocent looking this is your writing practice. Really it's just me establishing a dialogue with the students to help them through the class as best I can, at whatever level they're at.

Speaker 2: 15:17

Which means that now you can draw a picture right. You know if they're new to online, you know if they have a good home life where they can do work, or they got to go to the library or go to McDonald's or Starbucks to get to Internet. You get to start to draw some of that picture by using your quizzes and your assignments and your writing samples, right.

Speaker 3: 15:38

Absolutely, absolutely. And I allow the student. You know they have time to it's the writing process I talk about a lot in my very accelerated courses so they have time to revise. So we're establishing even more of a dialogue back and forth. So maybe they start out with just a little bit of info but eventually, as they become more comfortable they can, they can share with me all kinds of things that they have going on without fear of me. You know, not just judging, but also not. Hey, everybody guess what in the course. You know, not just judging, but also not, hey, everybody guess what in the course. You know they trust me enough to know that whatever they say to me, it does not leave that area.

Speaker 2: 16:17

So, if I take this to the next step in the conversation, as a teacher and I'd be curious if you can tell us how you get into online and how was your transition to online teacher teaching but as a teacher, and you're teaching students who come at you from different walks of life what are the consequences if our students cannot learn and compete in a digital environment?

Speaker 3: 16:40

And there are consequences. You are correct. I began teaching so long ago in a ground class. I remember a very young, zippy instructor just kind of bouncing off the walls. Not much has changed in my 20 years Now. I'm just kind of bouncy online.

Speaker 3: 16:56

But I was an online student first many years ago as well, and then eventually became a ground instructor, became a hybrid instructor, became a ground instructor, became a hybrid instructor and then in 2015, a colleague reached out desperately needing assistance fully online and said please, can you set up a class, teach it, I need your help. And I said, okay, I've never done fully online, but let me give it a shot. And then I just loved it. I don't think, if it'd been for that colleague, I may not have ever given it a shot that early. This was probably late 2014, early 2015. So I had a few good years of online practice before the pandemic and then while teaching ground for Ross. Obviously, the pandemic hit. So I had already had experience. My transition was very seamless. I wasn't intuitive enough to know that it would not be seamless for all of my peers, my students, my friends, and I helped them as much as I could, showing them how to set up. You know how to use their phone to make videos, set up a Vimeo account, use iMovie, make lectures, use Zoom for full efficiency, the big blue button and Canvas. I remember, you know, showing them everything that I possibly could to help them as well, and I think helping as many people as I possibly could make the online transition. That made it easier for me too.

Speaker 3: 18:26

I wasn't just relying on, well, what did I do? When I first started? It was kind of looking at things I'd been taking for granted for a while, looking to them in a new light. And then how could I use all of this data to help my students? So, helping them through the pandemic, the height of it, was one thing. And now here we are, a few years out, and I can see how fast technology is moving. I mean, it was just a few years ago, you know.

Speaker 3: 18:56

Ai was a neat thing that only certain people talked about. Now I simply cannot log on to my phone, to my laptop. I really can't even stand in line at the grocery store and not hear someone you know bring up AI. So about a year and a half, maybe almost two years ago now, I had to become very proficient, and when I say very proficient. I also mean like I at least had to know how to use some AI and help students navigate that minefield.

Speaker 3: 19:28

It's just, it's just so fast and I can see how people would be could be left behind very quickly, and I didn't want that for anyone. I didn't want it before the pandemic, during the pandemic, and I certainly don't want it now, because I don't want to see anyone face any of the consequences, such as like being left out of job opportunities or promotional opportunity, advancement opportunities, even opportunities that can help stimulate who they are as an individual, like perhaps something creative. I don't want to see them left behind from that. So anything that I can possibly do to to to help, I'm there for it.

Speaker 1: 20:09

So you're just discussing the consequences that people can have if they're left behind, if they're not embracing technology, if they're not keeping up with the times. As an institution, we have a responsibility to try and keep our students moving forward. I know for a fact that at Ross it's a daily conversation, not just between leadership but all across the board, and how can we keep embracing technology and other ways to support our students achieve their goals? So if we look big picture as an institution, how can an institution help bridge the gap?

Speaker 3: 20:43

A lot of the ideas that I have for specifically for Ross. I remember that. I remember thinking about them from my days, even as a ground instructor, and now online when we talked to earlier even about things about, you know, the digital divide, the access divide.

Speaker 3: 20:59

Just because we're aware of a lot of the resources and opportunities does not mean students are aware of them, and sometimes I've found that repetition is key that there are things that can be available for students, you know, be it something in the community, something you know they're on campus, something online, and the more we can make students aware of whatever these resources are and in multiple entry points like can we tell them an email? Can we tell them in person? Can we put it somewhere else in the classroom? Tell them in email? Can we tell them in person? Can we put it somewhere else in the classroom? Whatever the case may be, you know that I think is critical as an institution just constantly letting students know what is available to them and how it's available to them, and then letting them know if they have questions do they need assistance navigating some of these resources? That there's somebody there to assist them.

Speaker 2: 21:50

So maybe I can build on this, as now we're talking about you know how can we bridge the gap, especially when it comes to our own raw students? I find you know the issues that they face in college kind of mimic what they face in high school and in middle school. So if they came through, you know, k through 12, struggling with the resources to learn online or to use digital skills, it's likely to multiply in college. It doesn't necessarily get better automatically just because they are in college, unless there is an intentional effort, either at the beginning or before they start, to deliver programs specifically to improve their digital and their online skills. Do you see that as one avenue where students who come from really an environment where they never had the training, never had the resources, never had any opportunity to improve their skills? They should get some training before they get into online learning?

Speaker 3: 22:52

I would definitely recommend it. So we talked about, you know, maybe students have access to digital technology, the internet. It doesn't necessarily mean that they can efficiently use the time they have to locate all of the needed resources. The internet is a gigantically overwhelming place and just simply logging on some days it's a barrage of information. So I think, helping to train students, helping them navigate I think repetition is key. I also think someone there to coach, to mentor, to literally just be there for them, supporting them.

Speaker 3: 23:35

So if they had access to folks that they trusted through Ross, be it online or on the campus or both, I think that training may work very well for them, especially once we find out you know well where's the student at, what do they need? What type of technological training do they need? Is it simply the basics, or is it integrating the knowledge they do have and then moving it on to the LMS that we use, or is it something more advanced, something you know, programmatic, specific? Either way, integrating the knowledge they do have and then moving it on to the LMS that we use, or is it something more advanced, something you know, programmatic, specific Either way, I think being able to meet with, you know, their department heads. Anybody from the institution willing to assist you know compassionately as well, I think would be a tremendous help.

Speaker 2: 24:23

I think we both probably agree that online learning is here to stay. I think we both agree that students who come from poor background benefit from online learning, benefit from hybrid learning. It gives them flexibility, but there are sometimes the attitude is that my students aren't ready for online learning or my students are. My program is not suitable for online learning and it's usually designed to reflect on socioeconomic conditions, right, so if you're, if you're, poor, you shouldn't do online. If you came from an environment where you had laptops, you had Internet, you should do online. That our students cannot compete in the long term without improving their digital skills but still making sure they're equipped to be successful without denying them the opportunity.

Speaker 3: 25:10

I could never make that assessment. For someone like, hey, you're not ready, or this class should never be online, I don't know that I would ever make that assessment. The idea of dealing in absolutes or letting someone know without a doubt, I feel you're not ready, I can't do that. Everybody was, in fact, it was your first time at some point, whether it's in the classroom or out, whatever the student needed to feel comfortable, especially with something you know that they're going to need to be competitive in the future. A lot of times it's merely following along with the student on their journey. You know, early intervention is key. Assessing as the students going along at various checkpoints and multiple people doing that, and even just as many people as possible, establishing conversation and dialogue with the student as they go along. I think that is critical to assessing. You know, how can we best help them on their journey? If we're not speaking to them or talking to them at regular intervals, then we're just kind of out here guessing.

Speaker 3: 26:19

I think students, they're very smart as well. They intuitively know hey, I'm not comfortable here. I'm. Students, they're very smart as well. They intuitively know. Hey, I'm not comfortable here, I'm feeling left behind. This guy next to me knows more. It's really not easy for a lot of people to ask for help, and that's for multiple reasons. It's very difficult for some people to ask for help, so I think very strictly, even just letting students know you're there, in whatever capacity, and offering help. I think that's that's also key to helping the student avoid some of the potential pitfalls and consequences that they may face if they're not ready to really jump into this education with with, with all they have, even knowing that there's going to be some obstacles.

Speaker 2: 26:58

You know you're you're clearly very engaged and you use your classroom material to get to know your students. But I think the part that I think many of our teachers can learn from is you tailor your approach depending on the students you're working with. You know you don't have kind of a one method for everybody enough to work with each student and the needs that they have, the personal challenges that they have, the conditions at home, the conditions at work. I mean, I don't necessarily know how many people do that, but I would be curious. I mean, you've been doing this for a long time. You know how prevalent is your approach and the flexibility you bring to the table in the online teaching world.

Speaker 3: 27:44

Oh well, I would like it to be more prevalent. I'm not going to mince words there. I think a lot of instructors really they try very hard, I think as well. The teaching profession being what it is, I think a lot of times instructors really can easily fall into what I can only call a rut. Teachers, you know, they're human, so they'll get a little burned out or wondering how many times they can teach this one concept, you know, before their head explodes. But that is one of the key components of being an instructor that you have to realize that things can change very quickly.

Speaker 3: 28:23

Many different types of people need your help and there is no time for you to fall into a rut or to rest on your laurels. Hey, I did this great thing five years ago. Well, I'm done now. There is no time for that that. You have to remain engaged all the time. Students, they need you a lot. So if you're not prepared to be willing to change, adapt, remain flexible, avoid using the one size fits all approach, because that just it just doesn't work, and be willing to admit when you're wrong or you as an instructor need assistance. I think you can really really reach a lot more students in that way.

Speaker 2: 29:06

To wrap up, I'm going to give you the last words, but I'm going to kind of have you tailor it towards maybe giving our students some advice online students some advice, especially students who've never done online learning before. You know, before the pandemic, only 10% of our students took some part of an online course. Today, almost two-thirds almost over 70% are either hybrid or fully online. Many of our students have clearly embraced it. They want to do it. It gives them flexibility. We talked about all the different advantages that it brings to them, but as a school, we're responsible for outcomes. We want the student to be successful, we want them to graduate, we want them to be able to be placed, and so we are taking some steps internally on how to do that. What would you say to students who are now attempting online learning for the first time? What should they do before they commit to it and what should they do after they commit to it and what should they do after they commit to it?

Speaker 3: 30:05

I would definitely encourage them to number one, to make that commitment. It's important for their own growth, for the things that they want in life, for the goals and the dreams that they have. Make that commitment. It's critical. Do not give up at the first sign of an obstacle, because there will be obstacles. I think I mentioned this earlier, you know, in the, in the podcast here. There there will be obstacles. That's without a doubt. They're going to come. How you navigate those obstacles is absolutely critical. Do you ask for help or do you just? You know, do you get quiet? You know, withdraw and hope the problem goes away. That never works. So I would encourage all students to, once they make that commitment, always ask for help as needed. Always ask questions, ask a ton of questions, ask as many questions as you feel the need to ask. Meet as many people as humanly possible online, as many people as you can. Establish a dialogue with instructors, administrators, fellow peers. Meet them all, because you never know what that connection, that human connection, will bring to you until you try, and above all else, I would. I would want students to know that.

Speaker 3: 31:27

What's the famous quote that said before enlightenment comes confusion. So if you're feeling really confused, don't worry, because enlightenment's right around the corner, it's true. So if you're experiencing a little bit of confusion, it's true. So if you're experiencing a little bit of confusion, good things are around the corner if you just keep at it. But if you give up, the game is over. And that's I don't think people set out, you know, hoping a dream or a goal dies. I think they set out with the fullest intention of realizing that dream and goal to its fullest, most magical possibility. And you know, as a teacher, I'm hoping that for you too. I kind of want to see it. And then I want you to, after you graduate and get those dreams, I want you to come back and tell me all about it. That's what I want. So that is, that is some advice that I would, I would give to students.

Speaker 2: 32:18

Well, thank you, rhonda, it's a really great place to wrap it up today. But thank you, rhonda, it's a really great place to wrap it up today, but thank you so much for your time you're welcome.

Speaker 3: 32:25

It was a really of a pleasure being here.

Speaker 1: 32:27

Thank you both thanks for listening to make the leap. Be sure to visit our site, rosspodcastcom or the podcast platform of your choice, to listen to past episodes as well as subscribe, so you never miss future episodes. We hope you join us two weeks from now for our next episode as we learn more about education for social change. Is money a curse or a cure? See you then. Thank you.